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"The Board"

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Post by Coolie Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:57 am

I encourage everyone to read page 13 todays Advertiser "Crows and Power should give members real say".
Maybe send copy to our Board and SANFL. Says it all.
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Post by Mockingjay Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:44 pm

Coolie wrote:I encourage everyone to read page 13 todays Advertiser "Crows and Power should give members real say".
Maybe send copy to our Board and SANFL.  Says it all.

Couldn't agree more. Appointed not elected Boards are a relic from a by-gone era. Also, after all the stuff and nonsense surrounding the so-called necessity of changing the Bloods' Constitution last year, it is alarming that the present Board seemingly has little interest in abiding by it anyway. For example, does anyone know if a replacement has been found for the second member-elected Director who resigned? And what about the appointment of a Nominations Committee? The Constitution gives that Committee overall power in appointing people who have control over the future of this Club but we supporters aren't even told who is on it or even if there is one. What a fiasco!
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Post by bruce cameron Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:08 pm

Coolie wrote:I encourage everyone to read page 13 todays Advertiser "Crows and Power should give members real say".
Maybe send copy to our Board and SANFL.  Says it all.


Maybe the board should organise another vote regarding changes to the constitution (ie those that allowed for the establishment of a nominated board instead of an elected one) this time making sure that a ballot paper goes to every financial member, so that we can be sure that the vote truly reflects the wishes of the membership. This would need to take place prior to the next AGM. If the vote is for a return to an elected board then nominees can argue their case. Again ballot papers can be sent out to any members who can not attend the AGM. The current board members will be able to present to the members what they have managed to achieve in the first year of their tenure. They would also be able to post this on the club website for those who opt to receive a postal vote.
By doing it this way, we can be sure that the members' have a say in the running of the club, which is the way it should be.
The fallout from the Crows non appearance in the past two finals series highlights the importance of a membership. Imagine if the Crows had experienced a run like Westies have had over the past four seasons. There would probably be talk of lynchings or at the very least a revolution. It also goes to show the folly of running a football club purely as a business. A football club which ignores its supporters is not a healthy football club. An arrogant comment such as 'if you don't like it find another club to support' is indicative of an administration which doesn't care about its members. Members may not switch their allegiance to another club, but they might just find something else to do on Saturday afternoons.
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Post by aldo russian Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:01 pm

Is there a process stipulated in the Constitution for replacing a member-elected Board member who doesn't complete his term? We were promised 2 member-elected reps, we only have one - it could even be unconstitutional.
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Post by bruce cameron Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:14 pm

aldo russian wrote:Is there a process stipulated in the Constitution for replacing a member-elected Board member who doesn't complete his term? We were promised 2 member-elected reps, we only have one - it could even be unconstitutional.

Furthermore, if I'm not mistaken, I thought that the two elected positions would not have an allocated portfolio. Murray mentioned in one of his messages to members that a replacement for Richard would need to have experience in precinct management as that was the area that Richard was responsible for. Allocating particular areas of expertise to the two elected positions effectively excludes the majority of members from standing. In effect, the board could control exactly who gets elected to these two positions. Surely these two positions should be without portfolio and open to all members. They should in essence be used to liase between the members and the board. In this way the membership would at least have a voice on the board, albeit an outnumbered voice.
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Post by Mockingjay Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:46 pm

aldo russian wrote:Is there a process stipulated in the Constitution for replacing a member-elected Board member who doesn't complete his term? We were promised 2 member-elected reps, we only have one - it could even be unconstitutional.

You make a valid point "aldo russian". In my opinion, the new Constitution was hastily put together and was vague and confusing in many aspects. From memory, I believe it said that the Board had to appoint a replacement Director 'as soon as practicable', or wording to that effect. That doesn't appear to have happened. Perhaps the Club Solicitor would like to make a comment on this matter as he is probably the person most qualified? Wasn't he the Club legal advisor prior to the new Constitution being adopted and also could be a member of the new Governance Committee? He ought to know what is constitutional.
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Post by Mockingjay Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:01 pm

bruce cameron wrote:
aldo russian wrote:Is there a process stipulated in the Constitution for replacing a member-elected Board member who doesn't complete his term? We were promised 2 member-elected reps, we only have one - it could even be unconstitutional.

Furthermore, if I'm not mistaken, I thought that the two elected positions would not have an allocated portfolio. Murray mentioned in one of his messages to members that a replacement for Richard would need to have experience in precinct management as that was the area that Richard was responsible for. Allocating particular areas of expertise to the two elected positions effectively excludes the majority of members from standing. In effect, the board could control exactly who gets elected to these two positions.  Surely these two positions should be without portfolio and open to all members. They should in essence be used to liase between the members and the board. In this way the membership would at least have a voice on the board, albeit an outnumbered voice.

I agree Bruce. That stipulation was restrictive and controlling. All members have a right to put their names forward for a members' voted position on the Board. At least, that's what we were told when the constitutional change was so heavily promoted.
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Post by bruce cameron Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:11 pm

Mockingjay wrote:
aldo russian wrote:Is there a process stipulated in the Constitution for replacing a member-elected Board member who doesn't complete his term? We were promised 2 member-elected reps, we only have one - it could even be unconstitutional.

You make a valid point "aldo russian".  In my opinion, the new Constitution was hastily put together and was vague and confusing in many aspects.  From memory, I believe it said that the Board had to appoint a replacement Director 'as soon as practicable', or wording to that effect. That doesn't appear to have happened.  Perhaps the Club Solicitor would like to make a comment on this matter as he is probably the person most qualified?  Wasn't he the Club legal advisor prior to the new Constitution being adopted and also could be a member of the new Governance Committee?
 He ought to know what is constitutional.

I estimate the statements below were made about 10 weeks ago. Both appeared on the club's website. Either this position is not the priority it was said to be, 'the role of oval precinct director urgently needs to be filled' or the board has neglected to inform members of an appointment. A lot of this speculation could be avoided if the board and their various committees published the minutes of their meetings. It might only be a matter of time before someone asks if there actually are any meetings.

Sadly I must inform you that our oval precinct director, Vice President Richard Sykes, tendered his resignation last weekend. This created a casual vacancy on the board, for which we are currently seeking a candidate who is suitably qualified to oversee the oval precinct activities. Football director, Graeme Barton has accepted the role of Vice President in the meantime. The board will appoint a replacement for Richard as soon as possible, as the role of oval precinct director urgently needs to be filled. There is much to be done in this area. (Taken from President's address to members, June)

The resignation creates a casual vacancy on the Board, which may be filled by the Board (per 13.3 of the Constitution). The Director appointed to fill the casual vacancy shall hold office until the Annual General Meeting. (June ? - Club Statement)

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Post by Oldfella Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:14 pm

Mockinjay,

my poor recollections of Constitution leads me to believe you are around the mark "Board had to appoint a replacement Director 'as soon as practicable', or wording to that effect." ---- however key wording is as soon a practical

From memory, where an issue is not directly referred to in the constitution then there is provision for the Board to make a determination on the matter. In this case the words as soon a practical are not defined within the constitution from memory hence if correct it is up to the board to determine timing including non replacement until next AGM ------ if deterred until AGM then members can elect new board member.

Another thought, I do not recall the constitution requiring the President to appoint a club member for temporary replacement for a member elected board member.

I have previously requested a copy of constitution be placed on club website but am not sure if it has been posted yet.

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Post by Thiele Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:36 pm

We all had the chance to go the forum the board ran and they had Q&A session BUT the same 20 people turned up

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Post by Oldfella Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:49 pm

Theile,

I agree but it must be noted that apart from those who live interstate or rural most posters on here attended.

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Post by TAAARS Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:05 pm

I think you will find it is too late to get the board back to a member elected one.
Even if there was a motion to do it how many members would bother to turn up? 120 again like that fateful day when most in attendance sat like stunned mullets and believed everything that was proposed. Only about 20 odd of us voted against the change.
But lets say the members did get it back to a vote. What chance would they have of winning. The board holds all the cards. They can drip feed to us how well we are doing financially etc with no way we could check if the details are true or false. Most members would vote how the board asked again just like last time.
Our board is fast becoming a group of faceless men (and women) who answer to no one as I expected from day one.
I see no way out of this now so no point losing sleep over it.
The only thing that might cause it to change is years down the track if we fail to perform and the SANFL want to merge us or get rid of us altogether there may be such a revolt that we may see some changes. But I can't even be confident enough members would put up a fight then. Especially if it meant putting there hands in their wallets.
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Post by Oldfella Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:13 pm

Sadly I tend to agree

Lets enjoy the club while we still have it

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Post by bruce cameron Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:22 pm

TAAARS wrote:I think you will find it is too late to get the board back to a member elected one.
Even if there was a motion to do it how many members would bother to turn up? 120 again like that fateful day when most in attendance sat like stunned mullets and believed everything that was proposed. Only about 20 odd of us voted against the change.
But lets say the members did get it back to a vote. What chance would they have of winning. The board holds all the cards. They can drip feed to us how well we are doing financially etc with no way we could check if the details are true or false. Most members would vote how the board asked again just like last time.
Our board is fast becoming a group of faceless men (and women) who answer to no one as I expected from day one.
I see no way out of this now so no point losing sleep over it.
The only thing that might cause it to change is years down the track if we fail to perform and the SANFL want to merge us or get rid of us altogether there may be such a revolt that we may see some changes. But I can't even be confident enough members would put up a fight then. Especially if it meant putting there hands in their wallets.



I have a few questions which I would like answers to.

How many financial members existed when the vote was taken?

How many fully understood the implications of the change to the constitution OR how many even knew about the vote?

How many members buy a membership simply to get cheaper entry without taking an active interest in the running of the club?

I am still bewildered as to how this could get over the line. The arguments put forward for the change were ridiculous. There was no logical reason given for the refusal of the current board members to stand for election. The arguments for not voting yes were numerous and compelling. They appeared over several weeks on the forum. If members knew about the meeting and understood the implications then they should have attended or requested a proxy vote. Did the board at the time make every effort to ensure that every member was given the chance to vote? Was a minimum number required to vote before the vote became binding. A quorum should operate thus:

A simple majority is the best way to determine a quorum if you don't have a certain number already listed in the by-laws. Find out the total membership of your organization, and then divide that number in such a way as to have one number greater than the other by one.

So if the membership at the time was divided by two, then that is how many should have voted. I have no idea about the legal requirements, but morally this is what should have happened.

I tend to agree with TAARS, it would be nigh on impossible to get the board back to an elected one, but we need to communicate our displeasure to the board. If the current board can demonstrate success, why would they fear standing for election. Just because members voted for a change to the constitution doesn't mean it can't be undone through another vote.

I don't know what other posters think , but surviving by merging with another team is not surviving at all. I think it was Doug Thomas who answered a question about merging with another club by saying:
We will merge with anyone, as long as we wear red and black, are called the West Adelaide Football Club and play our home games at Richmond Oval.

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Post by Oldfella Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:30 pm

I was a strong advocate for the "NO" vote and will try to answer a few of your questions.

While we ran a strong campaign on this site and elsewhere however few members in the overall picture come here! --------- the club DID make information available but truly many were unwilling to read, voted because of personalities or long term friendships/conflicts. IMO those advocating a yes position had the advantage of several things -- namely club website, media, email access to members and also direct appeal/briefing to players.

One also needs to remember that several high profile persons (David Shipway for one) were very supportive of the change.

I believe that whist I did not agree with all its comments of the club with its email to all members, information on website and notifications in the paper did place comprehensive (admittedly one-sided) information in front of member therefore I do believe that the then President and his staff acted in an honorable and correct manner in a difficult time. -=---- THERE IS NO ISSUES WITH THE WAY THE VOTE WAS CONDUCTED FROM ME AND OTHERS IN ATTENDANCE

The meeting was held under the guidelines of the old constitution which clearly defined what was a quorum and also the system for proxy votes ------- there was more than enough attending at the meeting to easily meet quorum needs and proxy vote were made available (and counted) as part of the overall results.

For change to occur then 70%(from memory) of those who participated need to support the change ------ the result of the vote showed that the change was supported by over 70% of those who took the time to participate hence it was adopted totally legal under the rules.

The members legally made their decision and now we must accept/move on from that

In closing I repeat and endorse the call by Lee "I will again ask all members to support the President and the Board. It is a difficult job and the Board are all doing their best for the club."

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Post by bruce cameron Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:45 pm

Thanks Oldfella. I would be surprised if the way the vote was conducted didn't comply with every constitutional requirement, however I still find it difficult to believe the yes vote got up. My issue is not with the membership of the board, after all I don't know them. I just find it hard to believe that members would surrender their right to vote. Of course the only way forward is to support the board. Their success or failure will determine our future. And yes, you're right, it's time to move on.
Does anyone reading this know what our current membership numbers are? This figure used to appear on the website, but I haven't seen this number for a year or two. In particular, I would like to know if this figure has changed significantly since 2016.
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Post by aldo russian Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:40 am

To be honest, there's no way of knowing if the Board are all doing their best for the club, is there? The only way we have of measuring their efforts is by looking at our results, financial, membership-based and football-based.
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Post by bruce cameron Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:02 am

aldo russian wrote:To be honest, there's no way of knowing if the Board are all doing their best for the club, is there? The only way we have of measuring their efforts is by looking at our results, financial, membership-based and football-based.

And doing your best does not guarantee success. Just ask the players and coach. The on field performance can easily be measured and is the only KPI which is consistently transparent. Our membership numbers should be posted on the website and kept up to date. We should also be able to see the numbers for each category of membership. This is a simple task and shouldn't take much time. The finances are another matter. I guess we'll just have to wait until the AGM to find out what progress, if any, has been made in this area.
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Post by aldo russian Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:41 am

This is a link to a story about the end, this week, of the Bury Football Club in the English Football League. It says the top tier of the game (the EPL) is strangling the bottom tier. Sound familiar? The AFL and the SANFL need to guard against this happening here, rather than enabling it.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-28/bury-kicked-out-of-english-football-league-after-125-years/11455758
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Post by mikeme Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:14 am

Just putting my 2 cents worth into the ring.

While I have had a dig at the board from time to time, at the moment what are they doing wrong that we know of?

Yes we have a restricted salary cap. But that was a legacy that was trying to be rectified and as I believe is still in negotiations. The Board have not stated how we are traveling financially as a club (that could be a problem) so really we don't have a lot to have a crack at them about at the moment.

Clearly the problem most supporters of the club are frustrated with is our on field performance for the last 4 years. We have lost a lot of players over this time that have included most of  our premiership players (only 6 played last game), this puts a drain on every person involved.

Just want to throw this out there be it right or wrong "Are we paying Overs for the players that we have?" If we are at the top end of our salary cap even if restricted by about $20k clearly there is something not right. Not knowing what players are being paid and I don't want to know but with walk outs and retirements we should have a lot more in the coffers for this year BUT we cannot over pay players and not get results. Have the normal player payments and base gone up and are out of control? Do our players think they are worth more than they really are? Will some of the players this year ask for more now that they have more experience?

So short story long - ARE WE PAYING OUR PLAYERS OVERS?

GO THE BLOODS.
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Post by bruce cameron Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:43 am

aldo russian wrote:This is a link to a story about the end, this week, of the Bury Football Club in the English Football League. It says the top tier of the game (the EPL) is strangling the bottom tier. Sound familiar? The AFL and the SANFL need to guard against this happening here, rather than enabling it.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-28/bury-kicked-out-of-english-football-league-after-125-years/11455758

Well done on finding this, a cautionary tale indeed. Sometime ago, a poster on here published a link to an audio passage taken from Melbourne radio. The presenter's surname was Warner, I think. I'll go back and look for it when I get time. It was a brief rant/expose on the motivation behind many of the AFLs actions. One of the dangers is that the larger a corporation gets, the more focussed it becomes on profit. Eventually marketing and profit become the only concerns.

It is a shared view that the AFL is too powerful to be forced/asked to make any concessions. I recently wrote to the SANFL on this matter. (posted the letter on here recently) I still have not received a reply. One of the points I tried to make is covered in the following excerpt.

I know you sympathise with this position but, the SANFL needs to get on the front foot and demand either respect or compensation from the AFL. Jake has stated that the SANFL will continue to stand firm in our opposition to a mid-season draft, however what does standing firm mean. I recently signed a petition protesting the mid-season draft knowing that it would have little impact. Something more visible needs to take place so that the media can cover it thereby gaining exposure for our plight. The AFL needs to cop some heat over this. The wider community needs to empathise with our situation. If the AFL can be shown to be wielding its power unnecessarily over a relatively weak state league, then they might just be embarrassed enough to listen to our protests. Why not organise a pride day when the supporters of the eight standalone clubs make their way onto the ground at half time to celebrate the sense of community that local footy provides, while at the same time highlighting the injustice of a mid-season draft. Choose the right round when crowds are likely to be higher and get the clubs to work with you to make this happen

We need to protect our state league to ensure it survives long term. The only way to have a win against the AFL is to embarrass them. They should be obligated to use some of their huge profits to support our state league, either by paying clubs compensation for players or providing funds without any strings attached. Why are we promoting our national game in China when clubs which have been around for over 100 years are struggling financially, and yet still provide high quality footballers for the AFL competition. It's madness. A collective approach is required. The story about the plight of the Bury FC is extremely relevant to our own.

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Post by blackandred Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:49 am

You have to love the passion on this thread. Keep it up.
Hope someone is taking notice.
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Post by Oldfella Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:21 am

aldo russian wrote:To be honest, there's no way of knowing if the Board are all doing their best for the club, is there? The only way we have of measuring their efforts is by looking at our results, financial, membership-based and football-based.

Aldo,

You hit the target with this comment ------- we all need to wait for the correct time and then make judgements.

I have no doubts that the Board Members are doing their best but at the end of the day it is about each Board members suitability and aptitude to successfully run a business that is also a sporting club ------ it is an interesting side thought that the Board could run what was viewed as a very successful West Adelaide business that has no membership with no success on field as long as it was successful financially.

FINANCIALLY.
We need to wait for results at AGM which can then be compared with previous years (profit) ---- a profit similar to last couple of years would be acceptable however were it to show a loss  this would be be extremely concerning requiring strong questions at minimum. Any attempt to blame a poor return on previous Boards would be seen farcical!

FOOTBALL.
First milestone would be at start of season when we are in a position to review the recruitment.
Second milestone will at the end of round 5 to judge teams overall performance.
Third milestone end of season teams overall performance.

MEMBERSHIP.
IMO this is the most difficult one to judge as to me it is strongly linked to other factors eg football performance ---- I am not sure if members numbers are the relevant factor or is the number/amount of sponsorship relevant or is it a combination of both?

THE QUESTION WHICH I HOPE IS NEVER NEEDED TO BE ANSWERED IS IF THE BOARD SIGNIFICANTLY FAILS THE ABOVE AND LOSES THE CONFIDENCE OF MEMBER JUST WHAT CAN WE MEMBERS DO ABOUT IT ---- I SUSPECT LITTLE

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Post by bruce cameron Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:39 am

[quote="mikeme"]
Yes we have a restricted salary cap. But that was a legacy that was trying to be rectified and as I believe is still in negotiations. The Board have not stated how we are traveling financially as a club (that could be a problem) so really we don't have a lot to have a crack at them about at the moment.(quote)
...

So short story long - ARE WE PAYING OUR PLAYERS OVERS? (quote)

Apart from my rant about the way the new board was formed, my only real criticism so far has been a lack of communication. Until the next AGM that is.
I remember reading recently about the difficulties of recruiting players from interstate. (jobs, relocation expenses etc) So, why recruit from interstate? If there is a player we just can't pass up on, then well and good, but surely we can find what we want in SA. My understanding is that in Sturt's 2016 premiership team every player bar two was sourced from SA. Please, somebody correct me if this is incorrect. I have no idea if some players are being paid too much, but given the current situation it would be stupid to continue to do it.
Given, the high number of players leaving the club, retirees, walk outs, drafts etc) we should have a decent amount for recruiting, however those players, in most cases need to be replaced. Other clubs have managed to find players from the country and metro leagues. Have we got people on this? These players won't demand to be paid overs.

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Post by Mockingjay Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:07 am

Oldfella wrote:
aldo russian wrote:To be honest, there's no way of knowing if the Board are all doing their best for the club, is there? The only way we have of measuring their efforts is by looking at our results, financial, membership-based and football-based.

Aldo,

You hit the target with this comment ------- we all need to wait for the correct time and then make judgements.

I have no doubts that the Board Members are doing their best but at the end of the day it is about each Board members suitability and aptitude to successfully run a business that is also a sporting club ------ it is an interesting side thought that the Board could run what was viewed as a very successful West Adelaide business that has no membership with no success on field as long as it was successful financially.

FINANCIALLY.
We need to wait for results at AGM which can then be compared with previous years (profit) ---- a profit similar to last couple of years would be acceptable however were it to show a loss  this would be be extremely concerning requiring strong questions at minimum. Any attempt to blame a poor return on previous Boards would be seen farcical!

FOOTBALL.
First milestone would be at start of season when we are in a position to review the recruitment.
Second milestone will at the end of round 5 to judge teams overall performance.
Third milestone end of season teams overall performance.

MEMBERSHIP.
IMO this is the most difficult one to judge as to me it is strongly linked to other factors eg football performance ---- I am not sure if members numbers are the relevant factor or is the number/amount of sponsorship relevant or is it a combination of both?

THE QUESTION WHICH I HOPE IS NEVER NEEDED TO BE ANSWERED IS IF THE BOARD SIGNIFICANTLY FAILS THE ABOVE AND LOSES THE CONFIDENCE OF MEMBER JUST WHAT CAN WE MEMBERS DO ABOUT IT ---- I SUSPECT LITTLE

Wouldn't the Board gain more confidence from members if it released interim results? Does anyone know how the Club is doing financially? Isn't waiting until the AGM to find out answers only going to put the Club's future in greater jeopardy? I am also sure that although members have had rights stripped from them, there are always ways and means to counteract this. But as you say, Oldfella, let's hope it doesn't come to that.
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